Paul Mackender (00:10):
Hi, I’m Paul Mackender, I’m the Chief Revenue Officer here at Agent3. And for our latest conversation under the Agents of Change banner, I’m here with Philip Ross today, the CEO of UnWork. I’m really excited about this conversation. I’ve known Philip since 2010, and going to get into the real big topic about the redefinition of work and what the workplace looks like today. So first of all, thanks for making time to talk today, Philip.

Philip Ross (00:33):
Pleasure, Paul. Good to see you.

Paul Mackender (00:34):
So before we get into the meat of the conversation, could you just maybe explain a little bit about what UnWork does? And actually, today, it’s really interesting, you’ve just launched your new book. So maybe also a little bit about why the time is right to launch the book and really what the book digs into.

Philip Ross (00:49):
Yeah, Paul, look, UnWork is about the future of work and the brand is about unraveling, unbundling, trying to unlearn some of the habits and assumptions we all have and have made about how work is done and where work is done. And I think the book is timely. We wrote it during lockdown. It is about the reaction to the pandemic and where work goes from here onwards, how we redefine, how, where when and why we work. So the purpose of UnWork is really to look at the new world of work. We help organizations around the globe understand the opportunity to shape a different way of working for their people. Often driven by a range of factors, it could be talent attraction, it could be cost reduction, it could be a realignment to the real work that’s taking place. And it’s kind of a typical approach, where we do the analysis and gather data and people’s ideas and opinions. And then come up with some very exciting, creative ways that you can reimagine the workplace and the way people work, along with the technologies and the culture and the change that has to go with it.

Paul Mackender (01:56):
Yeah, we worked on a joint project in 2010, if you remember, called the Hybrid Organization. That’s when we looked at I suppose, public sector, private sector, education. We looked at involving people like charities, and obviously, academia. And this whole idea of thinking, how is the world changing? What it’s like to look like? There were things like four generations of people in the workforce the first time. There was the real rise of social media. And I suppose more than ever at the time, we saw the shift in terms of the role of technology and how that could change the way that people worked.

Paul Mackender (02:30):
And I think that idea of hybrid was, we’re moving to less rigid structures, greater collaboration, but not always necessarily face-to-face. And this idea of various different working styles. In many respects, it was kind of ahead of its time. So if we come to where we are now, thinking back to some of the essence of what I’ve just talked about, how do you see the world that we operate within now? I know you work, as you say, globally with many, many large organizations. What are the main pillars of change that you’ve seen over this period?

Philip Ross (03:02):
Yeah. Reflecting back on that paper we did together, you could only have imagined how lockdown really triggered or catalyzed almost every organization in the world to have to think about, what is hybrid working? And I think it starts with the premise that people have actually been very happy working from home or working away from the office. The surveys we’ve seen globally have shown that people just do not want to go back to working as they did five days a week, commuting into a central business district or a central part of a city. So we have to question why that is. Now, there’s a range of factors, it’s convenient for some, it’s cost reduction for others. But by and large, the workplace was not particularly well suited and well aligned.

Philip Ross (03:46):
It gets very negative feedback when you ask people about the experience they had pre-lockdown. So I think we are facing the opportunity to redefine what the world of work is for people, the cadence of work, the way that the workplace should be reimagined to accommodate that new world of work. And there’s some fascinating examples, for example, like the Scotiabank in Toronto, who have reimagined their workplace as a series of ecosystems, groups of people coming together based around a common purpose.

Philip Ross (04:19):
We see with Microsoft’s data, most of the organizations we work with are on what’s called Microsoft 365, the cloud that Microsoft manages, produces all the relevant platforms, primarily Outlook and so on. And that provides us with rich data about where people are working, who they’re collaborating with, the extent of their working day, the number of hours after the core working day they’re having to work. The strength of their network, if they’re becoming siloed. And so for the first time ever, we’ve got some remarkable data to inform how people should work. So the pillars really are now, obviously, still people, place and technology, but more and more informed by data and rich analytics.

Paul Mackender (05:03):
Where does that leave us in terms of, you’ve mentioned people, place and technology, they were the three pillars when we look to the hybrid organization. In some respects, has the employee become more empowered? That they have a greater preference. At the same time, we’ve heard some organizations that are trying to dictate to a certain degree, or mandate maybe is the better word, that we want teams of certain skill sets to come together face-to-face because we believe they’re more productive. How do you see that in terms of this employee/employer type dynamic?

Philip Ross (05:36):
I think the balance is interesting. Obviously, there’s a lot of talk about the great resignation, the big quit. Now, we’re heading towards potential recession and the impacts of inflation, so the balance is continually shifting I think. But the premise that we actually have to just reimagine, not just the contract between employee and employer, but what’s best for people. What creates a great day at work? Now, the fascinating facts are that people have been, by and large, very productive in lockdown. Billable hours have increased, profit per employees increased, all the measures seem to have been very successful. So I think what we’re going to find is that for those tasks that are about solo working, deep work, focus, a lot of those can continue to get done at home.

Philip Ross (06:24):
For the tasks that are about interaction and collaboration, they’ll be better done together with individuals. But it can’t be done on a random basis, the typical approach there of you coming on a Tuesday and a Thursday, that’s two staccato, it’s too random. We think that you have to have intentionality. You have to use the data I’ve described. So for example, if you have a large organization, you’ve got two or three teams, you can look at the collision and the coefficient of collaboration between them. And that’s through emails being sent, diary invites to Teams or Zoom meetings, instant messaging, et cetera, et cetera. And so you can work out who’s collaborating with who, and suggest that they come back into a physical space together. And you don’t how many people that might look like, they could be 115 people between two teams who need to come together.

Philip Ross (07:14):
So the office, the workplace has to accommodate, perhaps for a day, 115 people. And that’s where we get a different vision. It’s about teams, but it’s about space that’s aligned for teams. Almost if you reimagine the offsite as onsite. Every day rating an experience of people where they can actually be productive. And one of the things we’ve been very involved in is helping companies select and deploy apps to provision work. And these are fascinating. We all know and use our apps, but these are apps to tell you how to work, or suggest how to work, on what day is it best to come into a space? And that could be because members of your team are already booked to be there, or that there’s after work drinks. And that’s [inaudible 00:08:01] because there’s a social function, et cetera, et cetera. So I think we’ll get the nudges and suggestions to shape our working day and our working week.

Paul Mackender (08:09):
So again, people looking at the place part, again, when we talked recently, you were talking about the impact on the built environment. Fewer people are coming into a metropolitan area, especially maybe high net worth individuals not spending, et cetera. It can have a number of impacts on a number of things from transport to things like crime and policing. What have you seen there and what have you heard in your travels around the world and talking to different organizations?

Philip Ross (08:34):
Well, I think this is a big issue for city planners, as much as organizations. I think the hollowing out of cities is a danger and New York’s been a classic case in point. The subways become not just dirty, but unsafe. We’re seeing high net worth individuals flee to places like Miami. Will they come back? Big question. And if tax revenues go down, it doesn’t just affect the city, it affects the retailers, the dry cleaners, the cafes and the restaurants and the bars, let alone the subway and transport systems. So there’s a big issue. And I suppose, especially when you’re seeing most cities now responding to almost like a three day week. All the data showing that Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday is getting back towards normal. Monday and Friday is desperate.

Philip Ross (09:21):
So there’s kind of a five day lull now. And that makes a lot of what we enjoy the city for, potentially unsustainable. So there’s a rebalancing, we have to reimagine how we’ll make our cities viable. And one of our favorite commentators, Richard Florida, talks now not so much about a central business district, but a central social district. And I think what we’ll find is, organizations earning the commute, if I can use that kind of phrase. They’ll need to A, imagine their workplace to be a much more rich environment and drive purpose and belonging. And what does that mean? That means that you’re extending the working day, people are coming for something that’s more than just the work. And that can be clubs, and groups, and societies, or it can be social, or it can be culture. So I think cultural and social capital need to be built through the provision of great workplace experience.

Paul Mackender (10:18):
What are the major technologies that you see at the moment, really coming to fore? Any other thoughts more generally?

Philip Ross (10:26):
What was remarkable about lockdown is, we were just about ready for the realization that the office really doesn’t house any technology any longer. We’re out at the stage where we can carry a mobile device, we can connect almost unconsciously, typically in a wireless first way. And almost everything we need is delivered from the cloud, which who knows where that is, and no one cares. So we’re becoming more and more place independent with technology. I think that will only get better and better. I think that we’ll get much more realization because as we carry our mobile phone, our cell phone, in effect that allows a personalized and then quite soon a contextualized experience. Because as with its use on the high street, inside a building of any kind, it knows who you are, where you are and what you’re there to do because it can see your calendar.

Philip Ross (11:18):
So I think quite soon the opportunity to shape experience will be with us, and also, shape sentience. How do you feel? I love a challenge a client gave me recently that, could we create a workplace experience where you arrive in the morning, spend your day in the workplace, and leave actually healthier than when you arrived? That interesting challenge because wellbeing is high on the agenda. And we can do that through the ability of linking wearables, steps, et cetera, et cetera, calorie counting and activity through your working day, if that’s what you want. It’s all about opt-in, I think none of this can be forced.

Paul Mackender (11:56):
I’m sure your new book covers a lot of this in a lot more depth, so the book’s called UnWorking. Almost as a precis of that book and almost to end this, what would you say you think are some of the key impacts that we’re going to start to see really coming to the fore in the workplace, so to speak, and in our working environments over the coming maybe year or two?

Philip Ross (12:17):
Yeah, Paul. Look, UnWorking was fascinating to write, because of course, it was mid-lockdown. But I think what we found is some very clear directions of travel for organizations. If you think about what is work and what is a workplace, it’s now the time to unravel and unbundle those assumptions. And that was part of the philosophy of UnWorking. Let’s drive a different path and let’s unlearn all the behaviors that have shaped the patterns that we are now so familiar with. To my mind, one of the things in the book, which I’ll reflect on, is the reemergence of the guild. The corporation has been, for a long time, the preeminent way of structuring work, but actually, the first commercial buildings around the globe after those religious buildings in cities were guild buildings, and you look around the city of London and you can still see them, as you can in Brussels and other fantastic capitals.

Philip Ross (13:11):
Now, the guilds were clusters of people who were like-minded. They came together because they all had a skill or profession. And we’re going to predict the reemergence of guilds. I’ll give you an example, the Ministry of Sound, a music label and club that many of you will know, has now opened its own coworking space called The Ministry for people in the music business. We’re seeing that co-work becomes more clustered. And I think what we’ll see, is corporates responding to that, making their space more of an experience, more about hospitality than facilities management. More about a place that feels that you belong, that you want to come to. So more a club, more a place that you’ll be where you’re rubbing shoulders with your colleagues and clients and others, and much less a prescriptive workplace. I think those that get it right will win the war for talent. People will want to join them and stay. It will energize people. But the old school nine to five at the desk, that’ll be up for grabs.

Paul Mackender (14:15):
Yeah. Well, it’s going to be a fascinating ride, so to speak. So Philip, it’s fantastic to speak to. Thank you for all your insights, and I look forward to reading your book.

Philip Ross (14:24):
Pleasure, Paul. Thanks so much.