Paul Mackender: 

Hi, I’m Paul Mackender. I’m the Chief Revenue Officer here at Agent3. And I’m here with Cat Dutton, who’s the Deputy CMO at Atos.

Great to see you, Cat. Maybe just, would you mind explaining a little bit more about Atos for those that don’t know Atos that well?

Cat Dutton:

Yeah, sure. Hi, Paul. Thanks for welcoming me to the call. So yeah, so Atos is a leader in digital services. Revenue-wise or annual revenue, as an organization, is around 11 billion euros per annum. So quite a large organization. We work across all different industry markets, and our services range from consulting right through to that end-to-end digital transformation that you might expect in an organization. And yeah, we’re also the main partner, the tech partner, for the Olympics. Yeah. Really exciting organization to work for.

Paul Mackender:

Yeah. Fantastic. And Cat, you’ve been at the forefront of lots of award wins. And I think I’ve met you for a long time now, and I’ve always seen you as being really innovative. So maybe to kick this off, in terms of the pandemic, which we’ve gone through and still obviously going through, maybe start with what have you, how have you personally coped with that, and what changes have you had to make to cope with that change, and to innovate and stay ahead of the game still?

Cat Dutton:

Yeah, sure. I guess aside from a personal perspective, Paul, I’ve got a little two year old who’s sort of running around. Yeah. So in terms of, from an organization perspective, I think the first thing that we really did was to focus on our employees and really ensure that certainly, from a wellbeing perspective, but also from a technology perspective, that people were set up to be able to work from home and have that environment in which to work.

I think the second thing that we did then, from a Marxian perspective, was really to look at the strategy that we had in terms of engaging directly with our clients. And I think most of the organizations can kind of attest to a lot of the physical events, in particular, had to change. So we obviously shifted a lot of our events to being online. We also started to look more at what we’re doing from a digital marketing perspective and how we’re really interacting with our clients. And also, we’ve recently, I think this is the big change for us, is as an organization, at the same time as obviously, the pandemic started and we went into locked down in the UK where I live, we also, as an organization, the month before, we actually started a transformation project internally within our organization, around our structure.

So from a marketing perspective, I think over the last 12 months, it’s pushed us almost into rethinking some of the work that we do directly with our clients. And in particular, we’ve, in the last three months, started to really work our group marketing strategy so that we’re really focusing on where those examples of best practice have been, typically in the last 12 months, and how we can really capitalize on those. So that’s the sort of thing in my new role that I’ve started to really focus on in the last few months.

Paul Mackender:

Great. And actually, imagine with that shift to digital, a big focus is around almost what I think you’d probably class as client experience. So, as you say, not being able to meet as much face-to-face or have those events that a lot of organizations do, but can you just talk a bit more about client experience and again, with this shift to more of a global structure and global models, the sort of things you’ve been thinking about looking at?

Cat Dutton:

Yeah. So one of the things that we’re now starting to do is put in place five different Global Centers of Excellence, as we call them, within our group marketing structure. And one of those is focused actually on something that we’re calling Client Success. And that incorporates the innovation sensors and networks that we have globally, of which we’ve got a number of different business technology and innovation centers, we’ve got artificial intelligence labs, we’ve got customer experience labs. I’m building that kind of consistency, if you like, in that approach.

The Client Success Center of Excellence for us also incorporates client advocacy and also some of those bigger kind of client events that we would typically run. And I think during the pandemic, what we’ve realized is that you don’t always have to have a big physical event for people to be really drawn in to speak with you. We’ve done some really cool little things online as part of some of those virtual events, including kind of wine tasting with clients over the phone, over video, which has been fascinating. I’m sure the people who are listening have done some of those things and texted ideas as well.

But the Centers of Excellence that we have, that we’re driving, as part of our group strategy, is to really bring together that framework and that governance globally, so that we’re starting to take some of those examples of best practice, roll them out in different countries, in different industries, within which we work, but to also gain that consistency and approach, because some of the things that we certainly learned in the last 12 months is it’s really important to recognize that a lot of our clients are global. And it doesn’t really matter what country they’re in or what industry they’re located in, they’re looking for a consistent experience through their work with Atos, and that’s what we need to provide. So, that Client Success Center of Excellence is really there to help drive that consistency in approach.

Paul Mackender:

And so this is about thinking and acting globally, I suppose, on many levels. And I suppose, maybe breaking down some preconceptions that you got to think globally but act locally, I suppose, but recognizing that and joining the dots. Where does things like client insight come into? Again, I’d say we worked with you on the insights front, and I know you’ve always been very customer first. And with that kind of mindset, is that a fresh challenge from an insider perspective, to understand your customers and, if you like, stay on the pulse of what they’re thinking or what they might want from Atos?

Cat Dutton:

Yeah, absolutely. And one of those five Centers of Excellence will be around insight, in general, which will incorporate client insight. I think a lot of the work that we’ve put in particularly around our Account Based Marketing approach and our Deal Based Marketing approach. And fortunately, lots of people know us for winning some of those awards on our Deal Based Marketing approach. Absolutely, it utilizes insight right at the start of that process. And I think part of our challenge going forward is how do we really get that insight to be real time, to be at the right time for our client teams or sales teams, and making sure, just even from a simple perspective, that we’ve got marketers who are engaging directly with our client and sales teams on that insight.

I think we’ve had examples previously where that’s worked extremely well, particularly from an executive stakeholder perspective where we’ve been doing those really in-depth profiles around exact stakeholders, and actually taking that into the client and sales teams and talking them through that information so that they can ask any questions that they’ve got, or maybe suggestions for actually how we can improve the way in which we’re putting that insight across.

But I think that almost, I want to say face-to-face, but it’s not anymore, is it? But more of that kind of verbal communication with people, and not just sending them information through your own email, I think, is really crucial to the heart of getting the insight. Real is insight.

Paul Mackender:

Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. And you mentioned ABM and DBM. Without going into too much detail, and to me they feel like they’re… It’s like a Venn diagram. They overlap. They’ve got some commonalities. Just from an Atos perspective, do you mind just talking about how they’re kind of defined and where they operate within your new marketing strategy?

Cat Dutton:

Yeah, I’m right at the center. So I guess for us, Deal Based Marketing is something that we’ve always really focused on. And we run those deals right from an end-to-end perspective, as a campaign. Yeah. And in fact, it is a form of Account Based Marketing. I think what we’re moving more into now is that kind of more targeted approach on existing clients where we’ve got business. I think we’ve always felt that we do an amazing job on the Deal Based Marketing side. We win a new client, we sign them up, and then it’s almost like they’ve kind of fall off a cliff. And other organizations, particularly some of our competitors, are really focused on that Account Based Marketing side, but not necessarily got the industrialization that we have behind our Deal Based Marketing approach.

So our focus is absolutely very much more on the Account Based Marketing approach, and building that as a global model for us, but using some of those principles that we have within Deal Based Marketing, because I don’t think… And exactly what you said, the two should be working in tandem and absolutely work in parallel. So we just put them together because it makes sense from a synergy perspective, but we’re focused a lot more on the Account Based Marketing side going forward.

Paul Mackender:

Understood. And just when we’re talking about Deal Based Marketing, I’m pretty sure you’ve always got to keep some of it close to your chest, so to speak, but what would you say are the main pillars? If somebody is watching this and thinking, “You know what? We need to invest in Deal Based Marketing.” Maybe pillars, and also the main pitfalls. What would you recommend they do? And what would you recommend they look out for?

Cat Dutton:

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I’m not going to give too much detail, right? But I think it’s having that planning up front and that engagement, absolute engagement, with our sales, bid teams, and also clients that you work with. I think sometimes, marketing is brought too late into the sales cycle to really make an impact. And I’m not saying you can ever get away, right? You will never get away from those last minute kind of “Can you create a video in two hours for us” kind of approach. But I think a lot more planning up front is really vital. And that is really where marketing can make a difference and really make the company stand out from its differentiate, from its competitors, through differentiating what it does.

And I think the other thing as well, is being a bit more pushy and a bit more challenging with stakeholders. Sometimes, you will always get a sales person or a bid manager that says, “No, we don’t want to be creative. We want to go with the standard kind of approach in terms of our submission.” But I think pushing the boundaries and really challenging those stakeholders, it’s vital as part of Deal Based Marketing.

You also then asked around pitfalls as well and things to kind of avoid. I think one of the biggest ones, actually, is over-commitment. Don’t over-commit yourself on certain things. Be really clear about the deliverables that you’re going to do, the value that you’re going to add, as a marketer, to the deal. People will tend to respect you more for that than trying to do everything and saying yes. In particular, where you’ve got more junior resources as well, that are starting to come through and get more involved in deals, they need to be able to challenge back and say no, and focus on the main things that need to get delivered.

Paul Mackender:

Yeah. Actually, you mentioned as well, one thing you’ve done very successfully is you’ve got that real interlock between sales and marketing, so that brings us back to not kind of everyone’s got a seat at the table, is also, as you imagine, a major part of what’s needed.

Cat Dutton:

We do, Paul. We do, but it’s not necessarily consistent globally. Yeah. So there are certain countries or certain industries where that relationship isn’t as strong as in some other areas of our business, and hence, the need for our Centers of Excellence to gain that consistency and really kind of promote the approaches where it works. But again, I challenge anyone that’s listening that you can absolutely build those relationships, but you need to invest in them and you need to invest that time. And we’ve spent a lot of time in the last few years, since I’ve been in Atos, really investing in those relationships direct with sales.

Paul Mackender:

Yeah. Well, it sounds like a really exciting time ahead for you. And obviously, it’s fantastic. And congratulations again on your role.

Cat Dutton:

Thank you.

Paul Mackender:

And what would you say, just to wrap this up then, it’d be kind of the lasting impact from your perspective where you see, in terms of the pandemic, and what impact it’s had on business?

Cat Dutton:

Yeah. I think a lot of people talk about it, Paul, but I think it is that human element and remembering that people are people, people have long lives. And I hope that as we go through life now that we don’t forget that real importance of people’s lives. And I can’t tell you how many video calls I’ve been on, where people have had their children in the background, or with the thing that’s going on in their house and trying to work at the same time. And I think that that’s just become a little bit of normality. And I just hope as we get more into being able to travel or being able to see people face-to-face, being able to go to meetings, events, that we don’t forget that real human element, the kind of what makes us, us. And I think that’s really important as well from a marketing perspective that we don’t forget that human element in any marketing that we share with our clients’ prospects or any marketing that we do.

Paul Mackender:

Yeah, definitely. And again, well, that’s where hopefully insight comes in. You start to understand your client and really make sure that’s not far from your thinking.

Cat, wonderful. As always, it’s great to talk to you. Thanks for your time.

Cat Dutton:

Thank you.

Paul Mackender:

And we’ll talk soon.

Cat Dutton:

Great. Thanks, Paul.